I continue to be interested in the two very distinct body styles of Katahdin sheep. I tried to bring this subject up with a fellow Katahdin breeder once, but they didn’t seem to understand what I was talking about. For that reason, I think it makes a good blog topic. On the blog I have the advantage of pictures (something I didn’t have on hand during my conversation).
Disclaimer: My use of “A” and “B” should not be confused with the KHSI use of A or B in reference with coat types. KHSI uses these letters to classify the shedding characteristics of the coat.
Body Style A:
When looking at the lambs, the bones are not as evident. They seem to form more of an “internal” structure to the animal. This also continues through adulthood. Their coat type is definitely “hair” and covers them completely. As lambs, they appear to have straighter toplines than Body Style B lambs. They have a squarer more filled out, balanced body. They are significantly “cuter” (my opinion).
Body Style B:
The bones of these animals are MUCH more evident. They are most evident in the shoulders. More often than not the shoulder blades are quite prominent and extend above the backbone. The neck seems longer and thinner and seems more curved. The top line is roached when they are lambs (this seems to flatten a bit as adults) which makes them appear hunched up. They remind me of camels! The coat is curly and tight to the body and when they are born, a lot of skin is visible. I think they appear smaller and more “fragile”. Oddly enough- these lambs are consistently heavier than the A Body Style lambs, despite being similar in height and length.
It is precisely because Body Style B is consistently heavier that I am so interested in this topic. I am concerned that heavily weight based evaluations (such as EPDs) might favor the B Body Style, and although these lambs weigh more, Mike and I don’t feel that they make as good meat animals. We have never done a hanging carcass comparison (maybe we will make a point of that this year) – therefore this is our opinion of the differences. Body style B sheep seem to carry more of their weight in the front half of the animal. As adults they have big rib cages, big shoulders, no butts, and more prominent backbones. When out on pasture they often look like they have “hay bellies”. Since the most marketable cuts of lamb are lamb chops and leg of lamb, having more weight in the front end of a sheep is not helpful.
This will be the first year I am submitting my data to establish EPD’s for my animals, but I am willing to bet that Body Style B animals will end up with better scores- as they have better weights. I hope I am wrong. I hope there is no difference between the two when it comes to EPDs. If I am right- then doing a side by side carcass comparison will become even more important. If this prediction is correct, it lends credibility to a “meat” measure such as loin ultrasound being added to the EPDs.
Shepherds that sell their lambs wholesale, benefit (in the short run only) by having a heavier animal. The reason I say in the short run- if the animals are marketed as “Katahdin”, and the end butcher feels they don’t have enough meat in valuable cuts, the breed as a whole suffers. If, on the other hand, they are meaty in the right places, then the value (and subsequently the price) goes up. Mike and I sell directly to the consumer. We see each package of chops (legs, etc) we produce. We are always working to get more meat in the right places. Body Style A animals seem to have better distribution of muscle/weight.
Just as important to me- Body Style A sheep LOOK like what I think a purebred Katahdin should look like. As the producer of “purebred” sheep I desire a consistent look. If I was JUST interested in producing lamb meat, I would cross-breed. I don’t like the protruding bones, big bellies, no butts, and the tight curls that I associate with the B Body Style. I do like the evenly muscled, rectangular shape, thick neck, good hair coat of the A Body Style. It is almost as if there are two different “Katahdins”. We have both types of ewes in our flock, but more and more I am moving towards the A Body Style. Which type of sheep do you have?
This is a great topic! I think “type” is very important in breeding.
Coming from decades of dog showing, I would say that type B is more of what people prefer in show animals of any species. Big bone, for one, which makes for kind of a lunky-looking specimen, but tends to be asthetically impressive in the show ring. Moderation never seems to be rewarded by show judges… :-{ Your B lamb looks like a baby Doberman Pinscher-all legs, bone and feet!
The B lamb seems to have narrow angulation in the shoulder-to-forearm and between the femur and tibia/fibula. In dogs will give a long stride length, coveted in watching them move at a trot. In static-shown animals like sheep, they have more “ground” underneath them, because when stacked up with their hocks vertical, their rear “parks out” far behind them (like an Arabian horse), giving the *impression* of a longer body (but it’s an optical illusion). I find that animals with a lot of angulation do tend to “roach” their backs more when standing naturally, but that the topline flattens out when the animal is stacked. The A sheep has less shoulder angulation, which I think gives more of a protruding chest in front, giving it a blockier, more rectangular body appearance. They don’t move as pretty, because their strides are limited, they have a choppy gait.
Your B lamb also seems to have longer bones in general- longer hocks, longer femur, longer forearms, and a longer neck. All things that show judges everywhere tend to reward, imo.
I think that showing usually tends to encourage too much extreme in body type, and indeed for meat animals, renders perhaps the wrong thing to be going after. A lanky animal just has more weight in leg bones, which is helpful on the scale, but not in what ends up in the freezer. US MARC also has some interesting research on Suffolks-the ultimate lanky breed- being tough, not so palatable and too lean. And also poor in pounds-per-ewe-weaned metrics.
So, I agree, I think shooting for the more moderate type, in leg length, height and angulation, and a more dense body is best for meat production.
However, for brood ewes, it might be worth considering what the dairy cow industry thinks- bony is good, less fat cover on the body and rump usually means more fat going into the udder for milk production. (I have no idea if that’s been scientifically proven, but I think that’s the general lore anyway). So might it be possible that we’d choose to keep “very dairy character” ewes for breeding, but breed them to a blocky, dense ram?
I have a mix of those types in my flock as well. I have too few sheep to make judgments on which are performing best, but I will say, my most unattractive, boniest ewe is quite a milk producer. I have often thought that the cobbier, heavier sheep in my flock look more like Dorpers in their faces (monkey faces?), and I’ve wondered if I have that influence somewhere way back. I also have some very petite animals that I suspect trace back to Barbado crosses, which I’ve heard happened a lot in the NW to diversify the gene pool originally.
When I was at the KHSI Expo sale this summer, boy, amost everything there was tall and long, long, long. I have to admit they were visually impressive and attractive, and I came home with a few! I’m curious too to see how these affect my end product, though. I suspect though it’s pretty, it’s not necessarily the best goal for meat production, that the Plain Jane animals without extremes put the most meat in the freezer.
Keep us posted on your continuing thoughts on this subject, I think it’s well worth conversation in determining what is the best direction for the breed.
Michelle
We noticed the 2 types too, although never in siblings – we have one ewe who is very much A type and all her lambs are A type and everyone else is B.
A fellow shepherd nearby has all As in his flock – we always tease him that they look just like him – he’s short and stocky 🙂
Interesting….
I’ve noticed the two types, but have tried to stay clear of the “thrown” together looking Katahdins.
I think a comparison between adults might be good because sometimes lambs just take a bit to fill out and buff up.
I’ve had lambs I’ve looked at and thought….you are so leaving as soon as your old enough…and they turned into wonderful, well muscled older lambs and adults. I also think some of what we often see as disconnected looking Katahdins is poor nutrition.
I think length and smooth put togetherness as well as a wide back end should be a few of the key things when building the herd. I love my ewes that are just a bit bigger in the back then the front.
Isn’t it amazing all the differences there are out there? Love Katahdins!
Really enjoyed your blog. I don’t really find stuff on Katahdins much even though I do a pretty much Katahdin blog. It’s so fun to find another one!
Just a note another note….
I raise dairy goats as well as Katahdins I’d 100% like muscle and backend on my critters. My best Katahdin producer (I can milk out over 1/2 gallon!) has an amazing back end!
There is a perfection there…but I can see where thinner ewes that might produce more milk on less food (I spoil mine a bit…) might be more profitable when bred to a hefty ram. Someewe, however, has to produce that hefty ram. 🙂
I think the Katahdin breed should be going towards better muscled, smooth, connected lambs.
Thank you for the comments- this is part of what I enjoy the most about blogs!
We get an even mix of the two body styles because this is not one of our selection criteria. We have had rams of both styles (I was attempting to find pictures of one my old Style B ram- who is no longer with us) and we keep ewes of both styles, so if you look at the individuals who make up the pedigrees- it is very mixed of the two styles . This might explain why Leon only gets most of one style and his neighbor most of another, while I have siblings that are one of each.
I have not found that one body style produces more milk over the other. I like Michelle’s thoughts about dairy cows vs. beef cows- but in the case of dairy- that is the sole product whereas with our sheep, we really need meaty ewes to produce meaty lambs.
We select our lambs by a number of different factors and honestly body style is not one of them. But I think that Body Style A is a “typier” Katahdin than body style B.
Keep the comments coming- I love to read them.
I agree with the fact that i have observed two different confirmations with the kathadin sheep. in this case it is named style A and style B. I learned about this facts when i started breeding sheep here in Trinidad an Tobago. few people had my type of experience hence the reason I have been more sucessful with my work. I am really pleased to see that someone else have understood an can distinguish the differences between the two types of the Kathadin sheep. Good work.
Naeem Hosein
We have been raising pure bred Katahdins for the past 11 years and I too have seen the distinct difference you refer to. However, we see very very few of them and actually one this year out of 160 lambs. I had chalked it up to a through back from the days when they were using suffolks to create the Katahdin breed. I actually have never kept one to see what they do and that is more due to our climate. Our winters are very cold and those curly little coats don’t take the winter like a good hair coat. The hair coats just dry up quicker and those lambs stay warmer so it is something we just stay away from. Just my thoughts…
do u know of anyone selling Katahdin in Hawaii? Looking for parasite tolerant, good breeders and next to no shearing? and I’am a Mainer, which helps, if you know what I mean!
Katahdin Hair Sheep International (or KHSI) lists Members by state. Check out their website at http://www.katahdins.org/
So, I’m not crazy… You have NO idea what a relief it is to find this post! I have all type B’s and have always been worried that they were preparing to leave the farm and take to the high fashion runways! They just always look hungry to me.
Happy to find this information. Have a new ram that seems to have started what your calling B type lambs in our herd. They do not seem as quick to get up and go on the first day as our type A lambs. Maybe it’s just my imagination. Have you noticed a difference.
Great Topic,
In my 8 years of raising purebred Katahdins I have not had a body type B, BUT my very good friend breeds wool sheep, and some of her E.Friesen X look much like the photos you posted. Since the Katahdin is a hybrid breed, and in the US upgrade programs are allowed (they aren’t in Canada), there is always the chance of a throw back. I had one ewe throw 2 ewe lambs that both grew a full set of horns, but her ram lambs didn’t even have scurs…Must be the Wiltshire. I breed for the beautiful retangular body and the AA hair coats(along with all the other wonderful Katahdin of course)
[…] long time ago, the Ewe Win blog wrote an interesting post about two distinct body types they get in Katahdin lambs, and it generated a lot of good […]
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Raising Comercial and Registerd Katahdin for 4 years I have both type A & B this last birth group i had a few Ram Lambs born with type B with the long legs and tight curls looked like a woolie lamb to me i just thought it was a ewe bought with a mix of dorper and katahdin mix or mix of a woolie thrown in somwhere. i noticed it right off looked like someone said before looked hungry but grew fast. i had others born in the same group with type A with a good full main and beard growing out long before 6 months. i pulled some rams to hold out for watching and didnt sell for commercial meat sales. i do believe this issue with the two body types are a good topic for breeders to research alot more. a good direction for the breed it would help with more information from many katahdin farms. Another thing i have noticed that pictuers i have seen from farms that say they are registerd breeders have mixed other hair breeds into thier katahdin lines to get a more colorful coats and different look. so it wouldnt supprise me if the katahdin breed hasnt been really chopped up from farms doing thier own exsperiments on the breed and not telling the actual facts to create a better dairy katahdin breed. i have noticed the big reds within the group and have certain whites with a distinct neck and head with a slicker and a cream satin glow hair on the whites that are the other cream of my flock. they are the better body and healthier ewes. still watching and still learning
BahRamEwe Farms is hosting the SCKA convention this June 14-15, in Laurel, MS. We are looking for interesting and informative topics to present at the convention. This seems to be very interesting AND informative. I enjoyed reading the blogs.
I have been line breeding a herd from a good ram, eating the males and keeping the females and then breeding a good son of the ram back to them. I am at the third generation and I have huge lambs and two dark chocolate ones with curly short coats, long limbs, and sweet mild dispositions..definetaly throw backs. Im keeping them. One is male and I’m dying to see what he will be like. Both are docile in temperment with. I am done with this breeding scheme and now shopping for an expensive RR southern lines ram. I would post a photo of the little brown ones as its exactly what we are talking about!
We have tried a little line breeding in the past. We used a ram from the same sire of some young ewes. He proved to be an awesome ram and his lambs were beautiful. However, someone visited the farm and wanted him more than I did. We have a new crop of lambs with both body styles mentioned above. They are only about a month old. They are growing well and looking to be some awesome rams. Ours will be ready to leave the farm in March. I’m sure there will be several at the convention in June as well. Check out our farm page to see our ram and lambs. BahRamEweFarms.com. Or on Facebook.
How do you post a photo of a lamb on this site?
Hi Genevieve, I am the only one who can post pictures on my blog. If you send me an email ( cadiepruss@yahoo.com ) with the picture (please compress it first) I will post it if I think it would add something to my blog.
Cadie Pruss
Ewe Win
Very interesting and timely discussion. I had a Katahdin ewe lamb tonight with twins. One type A and one type B. She typically produces only type A lambs. In need to start photographing my sheep and keep track of this…..
this is something I have been aware of and try to take advantage of for years, I purposely breed a’s to b’s and b’s to a’s. the two different body types is something I along with a couple other breeders have notices and discussed. little differences that show up time and time again in similar ways, on different sheep, our former president ed martisolf used to refer to the Ohio type katahdin vs the eastern type katahdin, and of course your short tail katahdins vs. your long tails katahdins
I’ve never heard of Ohio type or the eastern type, nor the short tail and long tail. Please say more. I noticed my brown ones changed over time to look like the others but are shorter and stockier. I now have a young COR ram line bred Loaded wagon and he is a soft fawn color with pink skin and at 5 months he still looks infantile. His tail is long.
I have never had one with the tight, wooly curls at birth. My ewes are all type “A” as are the rams I use. I live in the north if that makes any difference. I have lambed from January to May with no difference in hair coats on the lambs.
I have observed the same characteristics and agree with you. I like “A”. My flock is purebred but only the ram U.S. registered. I love my sheep!
i bred Katahdins for 15 years starting back in the early ’90’s, had a few of the type B crop up. All of my lambs were dropped in the field and pasture raised, and it seemed to me that the B types did not handle the cold (pacific NW) as well and did not get off to quite the vigorous start that the type A did. Also felt that the type A had more of a hair quality to its coat than type B. I do agree with others on this blog, we need to be VERY careful of show ring fads and flash! it does not matter how it prances, it matters how it taste!